Reguarding this article on the wiki : utaite.wikia.com/wiki/Utaite_Wiki:Reprinting_Guide_&_Tips
I feel that this article should be reworded to be a tutorial on how to download video's, not reprint them. Reprinting is wrong and I don't think the wiki should be condoning this.
I have noticed that the amount of singers who have started to make youtube channels or put in their video descriptions that they do not want their work reposted has been increasing and this is because they have started to aknowledge the problem that people are reposting their work without permission.The reason not all utaite's put "please do not reprint my videos" in their video descriptions is because they assume their fans will have the common curtesy to not repost work that does not belong to them. Just because a user does not say on their profile that they do not want their work reposted does mean that you have permission to repost it.
If the reprinter has gotten permission to post the work, then that is a different story, though since most fans might not think "I should as permission first" because maybe the do not speak Japanese and do not know how to communicate with the singer to get permission I do not think the wiki should be encouraging fans to steal their favorite singers videos.
You are not showing support to your favorite singers by listening to their reprints on youtube. You show support by them by watching the original NND video or watching the video on that singers official youtube channel.
I think that this page is outdated and should be reworded.
"I do feel that the page should be updated to encourage more positive reprinting if you wish to continue with a reprinting guide, but I am not sure how."
"I compleatly agree with you here and also kinda agree with @Tisris that the page should just be deleated, or atleast the tutorial on the bottom of the page at the very least since it is a violation."
"The wiki is a community. If you want to decide on what the new rules of the page should be then start a new thread so that we may all give our input on it. I do not think it would be fair to the wiki community if you just decide on them yourself."
"Why would we give our input after the changes are made? The utaite wiki users are all supposed to collectively discuss them and then implement them, not put them in and have everyone discuss them afterwards."
What I really wanna say though: The rules have been updated already... I don't see why you're so insisting on carrying this thread any further, and insist on making it a downloading guide... Or do you? If you don't and just want to make it more "positive", then suggest, what you would want to write. But since you said "but I am not sure how" I don't suppose you do have any suggestions.
(edited so its easier to read -Sen)
Candiifaec has implied in the bottom of her response "Don't worry, we'll either update the guide or delete it. But please be patient until then. Afterwards feel free to give your input on changes made." That any further editing of the page would be discussed by only her and the admins, no one else included. I think thats why @Tisris mentioned that we should discuss before not after so that our opinions can be heard and inlcuded into the editing of the page.
Since you seem kinda seem interested if we have any suggestions, my ideas are :
In the introduction to reprinting and proper credit sections:
we should say something along the lines of,
"if a singer already has a youtube channel do not reprint their videos. Link videos to their own youtube channel instead"
since personally, I think it is a given that if a singer has a youtube channel already then you do not have permission to further upload their videos. Some singers do not always upload all of their songs to their youtube but if they decide not to put their cover on youtube along with nico nico douga then I think its implied that they do not want that cover on youtube, therefore you should not upload it either. ( I have seen this happen with Amatsuki a couple times and some other singers too)
I also noticed that the page kind of repeats itself in these sections too, It has a example of a description in the blue box and then a new section below it saying "Other helpful things to consider, though are not necessary, might be including the original description, or including the English song titles and utaite names.
this kinda contradicts itself too because with the blue box and the description with that it implies "Include this" and then below says "this is not necessary"
I think this should be reworded to that it is necessary to have this included in the description.
I would also like to include a little blurb under the important notice section in the paragraph about checking for "do not reprint" an example of what do not reprint might look like in Japanese text.
Of what I have seen it is usually along the lines of "※YouTube.他の動画サイトへの転載禁止"
It always has the "※" symbol in front of it and it is sometimes even highlighted in red so I think it would be good to include a thing saying "Please look out for these things while looking to see if they do not allow reprints"
I think we can also add in the information "Do not reprint messages are commonly included in the video description and/or a persons nico page description"
Sorry this will be a long awkward post as I'll be replying to the posts chronologically.
@TisRis (Long reply you gave earlier to me)
No problem. :>
Thanks for understanding :>
As for adding more things for encouraging more positive reprinting...if you don't know how, I surely don't know how to either and as it stands what's on the page seems enough for me.
Well by you guys claiming how that page was a "violation," it must mean that "something" was violated which in this case must imply rules.
Its hard to describe what "download" Meo meant and would honestly take some time to explicate and put into proper words but at the very least I can understand that it's not what you thought according to your reply to her.
Since this is not useful to the conversation I rather not spend time on this.
Well according to Jun, she didn't say that so uhh....anyhow Jun often plays Devil's advocate with me so I'm not too concerned if she disagrees with me.
Hmm from what I can tell:
Well if you were to include Stari she's on the Keep side but since we share accounts and thus opinions its more fair we count as one. So actually it seems the sides are pretty even :O
Alright. As long you understand that, that's good. (Hopefully this part doesn't come off as condescending O.O;; I have no intention of that tone at all)
Personally I feel that in some sense there's never a limit to what can be reprinted. Well I mean I do feel there should be a limit but at the same time you'll never know what song or whose's cover could make someone you interested and discover the fandom so I'm not opposed to new reprints. Everyone's tastes are different after all. Especially since Vocaloid and by extension Utaite is/are constantly evolving and producing new content.
Lol what do you exactly think we are doing right now then? Jun already answered this well so there's no need for me to comment any further.
@TisRis (reply to the second post)
What new rules do you exactly mean?... I can't seem to think of what should be added?
@Mizo (latest post)
Uh well its not like anyone had anything concrete to add to that page so what else could she say?
In that situation the only thing we could have done was add something and see what you guys thought, not that I would have done anything anyway since there was nothing, to my knowledge, to be added...I already stated that last time.
Okay wow it seems like we're finally getting somewhere now with your suggestions owo
If you haven't seen, the wiki already says to link to cover on their channel if they have one. We even have notices on their page too. I don't see any any reprint links in the songlist the for those pages but something could have gone under my radar.
If you're talking about reprints outside the wiki....You know its not our problem if people reprint those covers right...
We can encourage people not to do certain things and alert them of the utaite's preferences but that doesn't mean they'll actually listen.
Well there's no harm in adding that to the description since not everyone has the logic to not reprint them.
How I see it, is that one part is saying, "this is the reccommended description," while the other part is saying, "these things are optional."
But yeah I admit it may be confusing so I'll change it and make it more clear :O
Oh yes that would be useful! We should definitely add that!
Thanks for your input. It'll be very helpful ^^
I won't update it right now though since its kinda late where I am and I kinda want to sleep.
"if a singer already has a youtube channel do not reprint their videos. Link videos to their own youtube channel instead" - I agree with that; it's also included in the tutorial, so it should be included here too
"this kinda contradicts itself too because with the blue box and the description with that it implies "Include this" and then below says "this is not necessary"" It doesn't contradict itself. What is meant is, that it's a "nice to have" requirement as opposed to a "must have" one. Though if it's ambiguous it should be reworded.
"[...]"do not reprint" an example[...]" - I think that one is a great idea. I don't think "※" means anything. It's just a marker. But it should be explained that 転載 means reprinting and 禁止 forbidden, as well as other wordings that are commonly used (e.g. worded as a request to not reprint) etc.
This post has gotten kinda messy, so I am only going to explain this confusion on my part, then completely forget about the other irrelevant misunderstandings. Those take up too much energy and only lead to more confusion and unnecessary discussion.
We all need to put quotation marks around things we quote (we've been doing that since lol).
Now to the actual discussion.
I'm just agreeing with ideas that were pitched that sound good to me, whether they are in it already or not. I guess it's like "this is a good idea and let's keep it for sure and if it's not there already let's do it." I like Mizo's ideas of "if a singer already has a youtube channel do not reprint their videos. Link videos to their own youtube channel instead" and "[...]"do not reprint" an example[...]" I think I would like to put the "do not reprint" from Japanese to English translation in the odorite wiki guidelines as well just to at least post the translation somewhere. Although we still won't have a reprint guideline itself. Or does the utaite wiki have a "common NND description phrases" to translate common things that appear in descriptions? I think then it could also list the translation of "do not reprint" there if it does. This is a separate idea, but if you like it then we could discuss this in another post. It could include more things like the translation of "music credits" "lyrics" just for example.
I think we all agree, that Mizo's suggestions sound good. I haven't checked the guide page lately, so I don't know if those have been realized (yet).
Also @Tisris, something related would be the Nico Nico Dictionary. Also I understand the other confusion with "Since the downloading section of the page seems to be in violation then I think the page should be reworded to just stating the wiki's requirements on what reprints are allowed on the wiki.", however I never even quoted "I compleatly agree with you here and also kinda agree with @Tisris that the page should just be deleated, or atleast the tutorial on the bottom of the page at the very least since it is a violation." so...
Also @Sen "Well according to Jun, she didn't say that so uhh....anyhow Jun often plays Devil's advocate with me so I'm not too concerned if she disagrees with me." What do you mean by that （ಠ_ಠ） I just said, quote from the skype chat "I dont mind getting rid of it" as well as "because that literally means we could just simply get rid of the page" from the thread. -_-
I don't think its selfish to think that, you just misread that's all, no big deal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I already added all of things Mizo mentioned so yeah the guide should be fine now.
Sorry Jun maybe I shouldn't have used that idiom since it might not be understood widely. "Playing Devil's advocate" means that someone holds the opposite views as another and it often leads to discussion/deep thought about the situation/circumstances
Well I googled the definition, and from what I understood, it meant someone who pretends to have another opinion, to further deeper discussions. While it's true, that I try to include other pows, in my opinion, I always made clear, what side I am on though... :/
I am so done with this whole misunderstanding thing -_-
But thanks for all your ideas and changes! I'm honored to have spoken with the main utaite wiki admin.
What do you think?